Comment by ๐ฆ zzo38
It is not only to avoid memorizing numbers, but also in case the correct numbers will be different in future (e.g. dynamic DNS, or just because they changed the hosting), then it helps to have a domain name.
Aug 18 ยท 8 weeks ago
17 Later Comments โ
๐ฝ spc476 ยท Aug 18 at 08:51:
True. My own public server has changed IP address four times over the past 25 years; the last time sometime last year.
๐ rrobin ยท Aug 18 at 11:23:
there are a few dns alternatives but most people don't use them. The most popular ATM are probably .onion, IPNS (from IPFS), gnunet (but all require extra software on all machines). Also for historical stuff you have these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
๐ stack ยท Aug 18 at 12:28:
DDNS is actually a curious thing: central authority assigns the right to use a name at the outset, while later resolving it to a current but changeable ip address. Centralization galore.
โ๏ธ gim [OP] ยท Aug 18 at 15:09:
@spc476
No. Think about it---there are two people who want to use the same name.
In case of gemini, that particular case can be easily avoided: derive textual name from cert hash (although this wouldn't be easy to type, so no real gain vs actual dns name).
A blockchain actually makes some sense for that...
it's certainly not worth to waste energy on that, but in-general any p2p network that have some sort of consensus, makes creating name system easier.
gemini isn't and likely won't ever be p2p
๐ stack ยท Aug 18 at 16:05:
I don't mean 'another blockchain' as there's only need for one... No energy wasted. Having a global authoritative, unforgeable, decentralized ledger as a non-financial authority is actually worth every gigawatt.
Also, at some point someone will realize that mining and heating is synonymous. Much like Con Edison in NYC provides excess steam to tbousands of buildings.
๐ mbays ยท Aug 18 at 18:03:
Re 2., actually the gemini protocol spec states "5. the use of an IP address in the authority section SHOULD NOT be used.". IIRC, this is because gemini mandates SNI, and IP addresses aren't allowed as SNI. I don't know if any client refuses to accept such urls though. Mine doesn't.
๐ norayr ยท Aug 19 at 00:56:
folks, do i understand it correctly, that whatever distributed dns alternatives one would invent, the domain names won't be memorable and beautiful? those will be hashes like in case of alfis or onion.
so not much easier to remember than ip address.
then why do we need a domain name if we can't remember it?
i think using our existing centralized dns infrastructure is okay, just many countries and cities should have root servers.
๐ stack ยท Aug 19 at 01:04:
Technically we don't need symbolic names, just that our links work. For that, what I described earlier, would work fine without dns. I think that creating a link implies that you are responsible for it working makes more sense than a central authority.
Come to think of it, the server _should_ resolve the links -- instead of sending urls to a million clients and have each one resolve, it should do it once and save a megawatt.
What we have with DNS is nuts in so many ways...
๐ฝ spc476 ยท Aug 19 at 06:57:
Starting from nothing, how do I get a link to your content?
๐ stack ยท Aug 19 at 11:38:
Who starts from nothing? You are coming from a search engine or another page via a link. In the worst case, you could use a numeric IP address the way boomers used phone numbers, or a qr code if you are a fancy person.
Or you could ask DNS the first time but not every time. DOFU?
๐ฝ spc476 ยท Aug 20 at 06:16:
I'm starting from nothing. What if Gemini had to start from nothing intead of leaveraging the waste that apparently is DNS. That's what I'm asking.
๐ stack ยท Aug 20 at 14:14:
That's what i'm talking about. All links are ip-address based, and each publisher is responsible for the links working, because that is what being a publisher means.
It is compatible with Gemini today. We could abandon DNS if we wanted to.
๐ฝ spc476 ยท Aug 20 at 18:07:
So you link to my gemini server:
=> gemini://71.19.142.21 The First Gemini Site
And then, because it's beyond my control, my hosting provider needs for me to change the IP address of my server (which actually happened a few months ago). How do you find the new IP address? Am I responsible for keeping track of all inbound links? (How?) Are you responsible? How do you find the new IP address? I can't set up a redirect on the old IP address, maybe for reasons beyond the control of my provider.
We can hardly abandon DNS if we wanted to.
๐ stack ยท Aug 21 at 01:47:
Exactly, except no, DNS is bass ackwards.
Think rationally. Here are the basic axioms:
1) Publishers want their pages visible to others;
2) Publishers are responsible for outbound links' correctness;
3) manual updates would be painful and hard to track;
To automate we can use DNS and turn over our network graph to a central authority, OR, agree to run a little server that updates anyone who cares to know when our IP address changes.
That is, when I, a publisher of my page link to your page, I will ask your server to notify me of your IP changes.
There are a few of ways of doing that, and it's no more expensive than DNS.
โ๏ธ gim [OP] ยท Aug 21 at 08:18:
TBF, I'm not sure how you imagine this to work.
1. what is used for addressing ip-addresses directly? (If not ip addresses, that raises even more questions)
2. ip address is basically meaningless, so if I have site running on 123.123.123.123 and my ISP changes my ip to 100.100.100.100, how can I prove I owned 123.123.123.123 earlier?
3. This inversion of responsibility - by having publisher to announce his address change, could *maybe* work in a smolnet, where we can assume *maybe* there wouldn't be many hosts/servers to notify, but IMHO wouldn't scale in general.
(the discussion went bit off-topic I guess ;))
๐ stack ยท Aug 21 at 12:47:
This is a reasonable alternative to dns, so not entirely off topic.
IP addresses are used externally. But to make it nicer and allow for easy updates, symbolic addresses may be used. Each site publishes a site-specific hosts file, and browsers load it on first access of the day, say.
So a publisher is responsible for updating all links on their site, or rather, the site hosts file. How? By subscribing to the target-of-links publishers' update list. Likewise, keeping its own update list for others. Only other linking sites matter, not end-users. And IP adress changes are rare.
Security is no worse than DNS -- a subscriber exchanges certs and upon update knows it's the real deal.
In practice, how many people link to your site? Even if millions, it's a few megabytes of storage. For me it's a hundred, maybe.
๐ norayr ยท Aug 23 at 12:07:
want to add some more dns/yggdrasil related links:
โ and Alfis i think was already mentioned here.
Original Post
dns-related question โ I've noticed dns mentioned in some recent comments, and I've searched and looked through various posts, my questions are following: 1. Is there currently any alternative to DNS (when it comes to resolving gemini capsule names). 2. (question I've already asked in other post, but didn't caught much attention) Are there many capsules using IPv4 or IPv6 addresses? (and if so, do you visit such capsules?) ftr: asking, cause I'm considering getting (another) domain, and was...
๐ฌ gim ยท 23 comments ยท Aug 17 ยท 8 weeks ago
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